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	<title>Comments on: Viruses &#8211; Batteries Now Included</title>
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	<link>http://singularityhub.com/2009/05/07/viruses-batteries-now-included/</link>
	<description>The Future Is Here Today...Robotics, Genetics, AI, Longevity, The Brain...</description>
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		<title>By: Bacteria Harnessed To Power Micro-Motor &#124; Singularity Hub</title>
		<link>http://singularityhub.com/2009/05/07/viruses-batteries-now-included/#comment-9570</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacteria Harnessed To Power Micro-Motor &#124; Singularity Hub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] works. This means that we have an entirely new potential source of power at our disposal. Like batteries made from viruses we&#8217;ve discussed before, bacterial motors could be scaled up to function at the human scale, but are much more likely to be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] works. This means that we have an entirely new potential source of power at our disposal. Like batteries made from viruses we&#8217;ve discussed before, bacterial motors could be scaled up to function at the human scale, but are much more likely to be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://singularityhub.com/2009/05/07/viruses-batteries-now-included/#comment-31197</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 04:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://singularityhub.com/?p=3179#comment-31197</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve actually got a lot of feedback along the same vein of Nick&#039;s comments and I&#039;d like to address some of them. My general approach, that there is nothing to fear from these genetically modified, battery-building viruses, is largely a response to the regularly alarmist approach taken to g.e. technology that is the default stance of many in the media. There are concerns, there are dangers, there are worst-case scenarios, but it is a shame that we automatically worry about these concerns without first considering how wonderful the development is in the first place.
That being said, I think Nick and others are right when they point out that a self-replicating mechanism (biological or otherwise) has some inherent risk. All the life around us on our planet is risky in a similar way.

While the modifications to the M13 virus may increase the risk associated with it, I&#039;m not sure how that worst case scenario would evolve. The M13 now bonds to amorphous iron phosphate in water and to SWNTs. An &quot;evolutionary&quot; step to a more dangerous task (say bonding to NaCl ions in salt water and creating a battery out of the ocean) would only be catastrophic if we discount all the other chemicals, UV radiation and general virus-killing mechanisms there are naturally occurring.
It is also unclear if battery building (actually cathode building, but that&#039;s for another comment) is really advantageous to the virus in the first place. Building batteries expends energy that would otherwise be used to propagate the virus. Thus, it would seem that selection would be away from battery building unless the virus was under constant stimulus otherwise. That constant stimulus is provided by the control of scientists in a lab, but would likely disappear outside of such conditions. In other words, even if the virus &quot;got loose&quot; it would seem most likely for it to return to be a simple bacteriophage. There&#039;s no advantage to it building batteries in the wild.

There are other concerns I could address, but I am feeling my own acute lack of expertise becoming unbearable. Likely Dr. Belcher or others could better address any concerns we could dream up here and come up with more likely ones. If I can find a reliable forum or upcoming conference on Ethics and Genetic Engineering I will post it here. I think there&#039;s a lot to be learned from such debates.

I would like to reiterate my stance, however, that it would be wonderful to hear about a powerful development in technology and be filled with hope and optimism. Cynicism and pragmatism have their place (rightfully so) but we cannot make scientific progress based on those outlooks alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve actually got a lot of feedback along the same vein of Nick&#8217;s comments and I&#8217;d like to address some of them. My general approach, that there is nothing to fear from these genetically modified, battery-building viruses, is largely a response to the regularly alarmist approach taken to g.e. technology that is the default stance of many in the media. There are concerns, there are dangers, there are worst-case scenarios, but it is a shame that we automatically worry about these concerns without first considering how wonderful the development is in the first place.<br />
That being said, I think Nick and others are right when they point out that a self-replicating mechanism (biological or otherwise) has some inherent risk. All the life around us on our planet is risky in a similar way.</p>
<p>While the modifications to the M13 virus may increase the risk associated with it, I&#8217;m not sure how that worst case scenario would evolve. The M13 now bonds to amorphous iron phosphate in water and to SWNTs. An &#8220;evolutionary&#8221; step to a more dangerous task (say bonding to NaCl ions in salt water and creating a battery out of the ocean) would only be catastrophic if we discount all the other chemicals, UV radiation and general virus-killing mechanisms there are naturally occurring.<br />
It is also unclear if battery building (actually cathode building, but that&#8217;s for another comment) is really advantageous to the virus in the first place. Building batteries expends energy that would otherwise be used to propagate the virus. Thus, it would seem that selection would be away from battery building unless the virus was under constant stimulus otherwise. That constant stimulus is provided by the control of scientists in a lab, but would likely disappear outside of such conditions. In other words, even if the virus &#8220;got loose&#8221; it would seem most likely for it to return to be a simple bacteriophage. There&#8217;s no advantage to it building batteries in the wild.</p>
<p>There are other concerns I could address, but I am feeling my own acute lack of expertise becoming unbearable. Likely Dr. Belcher or others could better address any concerns we could dream up here and come up with more likely ones. If I can find a reliable forum or upcoming conference on Ethics and Genetic Engineering I will post it here. I think there&#8217;s a lot to be learned from such debates.</p>
<p>I would like to reiterate my stance, however, that it would be wonderful to hear about a powerful development in technology and be filled with hope and optimism. Cynicism and pragmatism have their place (rightfully so) but we cannot make scientific progress based on those outlooks alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://singularityhub.com/2009/05/07/viruses-batteries-now-included/#comment-1150</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 23:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://singularityhub.com/?p=3179#comment-1150</guid>
		<description>Oh, and before anyone steps up with the &quot;nanotubes aren&#039;t found in nature, [insult to your intelligence]&quot; argument, I&#039;d like to point out that nanotubes were discovered as a result of electrical experiments with graphite electrodes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Natural.2C_incidental.2C_and_controlled_flame_environments

I.E. lightning and already-burnt carbon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and before anyone steps up with the &#8220;nanotubes aren&#8217;t found in nature, [insult to your intelligence]&#8221; argument, I&#8217;d like to point out that nanotubes were discovered as a result of electrical experiments with graphite electrodes. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Natural.2C_incidental.2C_and_controlled_flame_environments" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Natural.2C_incidental.2C_and_controlled_flame_environments</a></p>
<p>I.E. lightning and already-burnt carbon.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://singularityhub.com/2009/05/07/viruses-batteries-now-included/#comment-1149</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 23:39:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://singularityhub.com/?p=3179#comment-1149</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d just like to point out that it doesn&#039;t take much DNA to change the function of an organism - with this virus as an example, a &#039;small portion&#039; of the DNA was changed, turning it from a bacteriophage into a battery.

Completely changing it&#039;s function and goal in life. 

And unless we&#039;re straight cloning them, their DNA will be evolving as they breed successive generations. 

I mean, they sound harmless, but what if the battery leaks and spills a tiny, unnoticed droplet into your mineral water? Hopefully then the nanotubes are the make-it or break-it part of the equation, otherwise they might turn your drinking water into a battery while you&#039;re not lookin. 

What if they spill into the ocean, which is full of minerals? 

I don&#039;t mean to detract from the awesome accomplishment they&#039;ve done here, I&#039;m just hoping these concerns will be addressed i.e. tested and not just dismissed as &#039;unlikely&#039; or one-in-a-million possibility, as there will probably be millions of millions (i.e. trillions) of these things in any large sized battery. 

At least testing is as easy as dropping them in mineral water and sea water and watching what happens. 

Viruses have been around a lot longer than we have, so it is wise to respect their abilities.  Even smallpox, &quot;eradicated,&quot; is still with us in the lab and thus remains a clear and present danger to humans through accident or malicious design. 

Gotta respect Nature too, because she always possesses the power to kill you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d just like to point out that it doesn&#8217;t take much DNA to change the function of an organism &#8211; with this virus as an example, a &#8216;small portion&#8217; of the DNA was changed, turning it from a bacteriophage into a battery.</p>
<p>Completely changing it&#8217;s function and goal in life. </p>
<p>And unless we&#8217;re straight cloning them, their DNA will be evolving as they breed successive generations. </p>
<p>I mean, they sound harmless, but what if the battery leaks and spills a tiny, unnoticed droplet into your mineral water? Hopefully then the nanotubes are the make-it or break-it part of the equation, otherwise they might turn your drinking water into a battery while you&#8217;re not lookin. </p>
<p>What if they spill into the ocean, which is full of minerals? </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to detract from the awesome accomplishment they&#8217;ve done here, I&#8217;m just hoping these concerns will be addressed i.e. tested and not just dismissed as &#8216;unlikely&#8217; or one-in-a-million possibility, as there will probably be millions of millions (i.e. trillions) of these things in any large sized battery. </p>
<p>At least testing is as easy as dropping them in mineral water and sea water and watching what happens. </p>
<p>Viruses have been around a lot longer than we have, so it is wise to respect their abilities.  Even smallpox, &#8220;eradicated,&#8221; is still with us in the lab and thus remains a clear and present danger to humans through accident or malicious design. </p>
<p>Gotta respect Nature too, because she always possesses the power to kill you.</p>
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